Was Carl Jung’s Ancestor an Illuminatus?

Tuesday, February 17th, 2009 | Illuminati Members

by Terry Melanson (17/2/2009)

There’s two Illuminati with the last name Jung identified in Hermann Schüttler’s Die Mitglieder des Illuminatenordens 1776-1787/93 (Munich: Ars Una 1991): Franz Wilhelm Jung (1757-1833) and Johann Sigmund Jung (1745-1824).

The latter, it turns out, was probably the uncle to the famed Swiss psychoanalyst’s grandfather, Carl Gustav Jung (1794-1864).

Here, from “Carl Gustav Jung, Avant-garde Conservative,” a 2008 doctoral dissertation by Jay Sherry.

Jung was descended from two well-known Basel families. His paternal grandfather and namesake Carl Gustav Jung (1794-1864) was born in Mannheim, Germany and studied medicine at the universities of Heidelberg and Berlin. He came under the influence of two leading liberal Protestant theologians Jacob Fries and Friedrich Schleiermacher. Besides a close personal relationship there was a social connection as well, Jung’s uncle Johann Sigismund von Jung was married to Schleiermacher’s younger sister. Due to Schleiermacher’s influence, Jung renounced his Roman Catholic faith and converted to Protestantism.

Even though Sherry doesn’t provide a date of birth and death, the mere fact that “Johann Sigismund von Jung” was the uncle of Carl Gustav Jung (b. 1794), narrows it down, and brings us squarely into the era of the Illuminati. A further search at Google books seems to confirm that “Johann Sigismund von Jung” was indeed the same “Johann Sigmund Jung” identified as an Illuminatus.

According to a few biographies of Carl Jung, “Johann Sigismund von Jung” was born in 1745 and died in 1824 - the same date of birth and death as the Illuminatus Johann Sigmund Jung (1745-1824) - and was a “chancellor” of Bavaria. Similarly, in Schüttler’s short bio of Illuminatus Johann Sigmund Jung we learn that in 1799 he was a member of the legislature (Regierungsrat) in Straubing, Bavaria; and from 1799 to 1802, on the governing court council (Hofgerichtsdirektor) in Memmingen, Bavaria, and a director of the Court of Appeals in Straubing. (Eighteenth-century German occupations and titles are notoriously difficult to translate; a Bavarian “Regierungsrat” or “Hofgerichtsdirektor” might very well be simplified as “Bavarian chancellor” to denote an official of high rank.)

Johann Sigmund Jung was a member of the Masonic Lodge “Maximilianische vollkommene Einigkeit zur goldenen Sonne” [Maximilien United to the Golden Sun] in Munich. His rank within the Illuminati was that of Minerval, and he had two code-names: Columella and Penelop(e). The last alias is a mystery. Penelope is a feminine noun (strange indeed), alluding to any of the following: 1) Penelope (dryad), the mother of Pan; 2) the wife of Odysseus in Homer’s Odyssey; or 3) Penelope of Celtic/Welsh fairy lore.

If Johann Sigmund Jung (1745-1824) and Johann Sigismund von Jung (1745-1824) are one and the same - more likely than not - there is no indication that Carl Jung was aware of the fact that one of his extended-ancestors was a member of the Illuminati. And despite this, Jung was still highly attuned to his forebears. He was aware of his grandfather being a Freemason, for instance, and that the latter’s coat of arms included Rosicrucian and Masonic symbolism. Jung had also claimed to have been a descendant of an original 17th-century Rosicrucian:

Crucially, in his autobiography Jung goes on to trace the roots of his destiny as the founder of analytical psychology beyond his grandfather. Although his train of thought is typically obscure on this point, Jung suggests he is descended from a Dr. Carl Jung of Mainz (d. 1645), whom he portrays as a follower of none other than Count Michael Maier, a ‘founder’ of Rosicrucianism. As a ‘Paracelsian’ this supposed ancestor was purportedly acquainted with Gerhard Dorn, a man whom Jung believed to have “grappled with the process of individuation” more than any other alchemist. Jung goes on to comment suggestively that “all this is not without certain interest” in light of his own concern with alchemical symbolism and the coniunctio oppositorum (’conjunction of opposites’). In this way Jung intimates that the unanswered questions he felt driven to resolve through his lifelong intellectual and therapeutic work stretch back to the Rosicrucianism of Count Michael Maier and the alchemy of the Paracelsians.

- Hereward Tilton, The Quest for the Phoenix: Spiritual Alchemy and Rosicrucianism in the Work of Count Michael Maier (1569-1622), Walter de Gruyter, 2003, p. 23

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26 Comments to Was Carl Jung’s Ancestor an Illuminatus?

Justin Russell
February 20, 2009

Interesting find there Terry.
Considering Jung’s great interest in alchemical motifs, particularly as he referenced many Rosicrucian tomes for his later works; it seems that he was tapping into his own familial pool in the collective unconscious.

Terry Melanson
February 20, 2009

If Jung did know about the Illuminati member, it probably wouldn’t be as important to him as the more mystical kin.

Regarding this guy’s alias in the Order, Penelop, this is indeed a strange and unusual one. Illuminati members were male, and they were invariably given (or picked) male pseudonyms. And, really, it was only between the candidate and his superior that the real reason for the assigned alias was known. In general, they were given a name for the purpose of imbuing certain qualities and characteristics. By studying the history of the personage, they would write essays and contemplate upon what they found.

Justin Russell
February 21, 2009

It’s an interesting point about Jung’s (probable) ancestor being given a male and a female alias. Could it be something of an alchemical nature, a coniunctio oppositorum reference?

Debra Benner
February 23, 2009

The Illuminati attachment may be there according to Jung’s ancestry however, it would dictate his belief system as per his theories. Many of us could have this attachment in our ancestry, but, according to the published information on the “Illuminati”, and their charactoristics, the influence should be carried genetically. Jung’s writings and belief system have been at the forefront in Psychology for years and are a tremendous influence on those that practice his teachings (myself included).

Terry Melanson
February 23, 2009

“Illuminati attachment may be there”

That’s all this article was about. Since this has never been brought up before, I thought I should point it out at least; and especially since Jung was so interested in his ancestry. Particularly in the English speaking world, most people have no idea as to the 1000+ members of the Illuminati that have been definitively identified, by Schüttler especially, and others such as Richard Van Dülmen. It’s one of the reasons why I wrote my book.

“according to the published information on the Illuminati’…influence should be carried genetically.”

What published material, precisely, are you referring to? When I talk Illuminati, I am referring to an historical secret society during the latter part of the 18th Century, in central Europe. “Bloodlines” of the Illuminati, in this context, only muddies the waters and introduces into the mix conflations beyond reason. If I believed every single “ex”-Illuminati that has come forward, I’d be a pretty gullible person. How many have their been over the years? Doc Marquis, John Todd, Bill Schnoebelen, Svali, Cisco Wheeler, Cathy O’Brien, Leo Zagami …. All contradict each other in many ways.

The only thing they have in common is that “witchcraft” is being touted as what this “Illuminati” cabal is really about. It’s a theory being promulgated in order to scare the bejesus out of Christians. There’s a market for it, and they fill the need admirably. They give ‘em what they want; and it gets lapped up with astonishment and zeal! The Illuminati - the real Bavarian Illuminati - had contempt for such occult mumbo-jumbo. If you were involved with Rosicrucianism, alchemy, mysticism, or theurgy, you had earned yourself a one-way ticket out of the Order.

Justin Russell
February 23, 2009

Terry Melanson quote:

“That’s all this article was about. Since this has never been brought up before, I thought I should point it out at least; and especially since Jung was so interested in his ancestry. Particularly in the English speaking world, most people have no idea as to the 1000+ members of the Illuminati that have been definitively identified, by Schüttler especially, and others such as Richard Van Dülmen. It’s one of the reasons why I wrote my book.”

Indeedy. I’m looking forward to the book. I read your Bavarian Illuminati article when I first got into all these areas a couple of years ago so I pre-ordered the book months ago.
If it doesn’t appear in March I shall have to storm the gates of TrineDay.

Terry Melanson
February 23, 2009

Thanks. The book has been to the printer already. The product is complete. Copies are being shipped out to distributors as we speak.

Jay Dyer
February 24, 2009

The Collier & Horowitz book on the Rockefellers notes that Edith Rockefeller went and studied under Jung and came back claiming miraculous powers and subsequently thinking she was the reincarnation of “Akn-es-en-pa-aten, child bride of Pharoah.”

I’ve also seen pictures of Edith and family where, if ever there were “illuminati” hand signals, she is doing one.

Jung placed stones around his yard covered in runes and swastikas. I think his article “Aion” is utter luciferian gnosticism, where Christ and anti-christ are seen as flip-sides of the same coin and necessary correllaries.

Jay Dyer
February 24, 2009

And also interesting, Schleiermacher is the arch-liberal higher critic.

Mumbley
February 24, 2009

Columella, AD 4 - ca. AD 70) was a Roman writer who wrote about agriculture and Pleurothallis penelops is an orchid.
perhaps there is a connection in the names he chose.

Terry Melanson
February 24, 2009

@Jay

I’m not much into philosophy or psychology, but it’s plain to the layman, even, that Jung was an occult philosopher. He has much in common with Hegel as well. I’m not sure if Jung was into Jakob Böhme, but I know Hegel was; perhaps that is why their writings seems similar to me.

@Mumbley

Yes, perhaps you are onto something. The exact spelling in the German book was just “penelop”, though. And unless the Quibus licet notebooks are accessible for the initiate, you can never be sure exactly what an alias was specifically alluding to.

Justin Russell
February 24, 2009

What I’ve read of Jung thus far seems to indicate a high regard for Bohme. But he had an even higher regard for Gerhard Dorn who, Jung wrote, was “far more lucid in his formulations than his successor Jakob Bohme.”

Meister Eickhart features quite heavily in his writings too. Well, what I’ve read of Jung so far anyway. Two books worth.

Kelly
February 25, 2009

Jung built a love nest for himself - a stone tower graffitied with occultic symbols where he used to make love to his mistress. That, and his experiments in synchronicity using astrological charts linger in memory from a book I read some years ago: The Aryan Christ by Richard Noll.

From the product description at Amazon:
Richard Noll traces the influence on Jung’s ideas of the occultism, mysticism, and racism of nineteenth-century German culture, demonstrating how Jung’s idealization of “primitive man has at its roots the Volkish movement of his own day, which championed a vision of an idyllic pre-Christian, Aryan past. Noll marshals a wealth of evidence to create the first full account of Jung’s private and public lives: his advocacy of polygamy as a spiritual path and his affairs with female disciples; his neopaganism and polytheism; his anti-Semitism; and his use of self-induced trance states and the pivotal visionary experience in which he saw himself reborn as a lion-headed god from an ancient cult. The Aryan Christ perfectly captures the charged atmosphere of Jung’s era and presents a cast of characters no novelist could dream up, among them Edith Rockefeller McCormick–whose story is fully told here for the first time–the lonely, agoraphobic daughter of John D. Rockefeller, who moved to Zurich to be near Jung and spent millions of dollars to help him launch his religious movement

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0679449450/ref=dp_proddesc_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

Lots of reviews there too. I don’t remember Noll mentioning an uncle or family occult connections for Jung, but thought I would mention the book for anyone interested in Jung’s occultic leanings.

Kelly
February 25, 2009

Terry,
I’m sorry, I forgot to say: I enjoyed the article! And do you have a link where I can order or obtain information about the book?

Terry Melanson
February 28, 2009

Thanks. Yes, I’ve heard of the book but haven’t read it. Noll wouldn’t have mentioned this uncle of his grandfather’s; there is probably only a handful of people in the world who are even aware of the two Jung initiates that I mentioned. Bavarian Illuminati membership is an extremely specialized area, and Schüttler’s citation, in turn, was from an equally obscure archival source only known by Illuminati and German Aufklärung experts: the Kloss archives housed in the Grand Lodge of the Netherlands.

Re: Book: Perfectibilists
The 18th Century Bavarian Order of the Illuminati

Brad Olson
March 3, 2009

Penelope is indeed an interesting pseudonym, and perhaps it is meant to allude to Homer’s Penelope who, in the Odyssey, is the epitome of faithfulness, steadfastness, cleverness, and courage. She is portrayed as the ideal partner to the more flamboyant and adventurous Odysseus.

As for the Richard Knoll book on Jung, for some reason Knoll is particularly vexed by Jung. I do not know why; bad analytic experience? But he takes events in Jung’s life and casts them in a particularly sinister and megalomanic cast. Jung had tremendous flaws, and in fact created chaos and some harm in people’s lives. A very fair portrait of Jung emerges in Deidre Bair’s relatively recent biography of Jung.

Terry Melanson
March 7, 2009

“…meant to allude to Homer’s Penelope who, in the Odyssey, is the epitome of faithfulness, steadfastness, cleverness, and courage”

That may well be the case. It was the characteristics of the pseudonym that was of importance.

phantom
September 12, 2009

“What published material, precisely, are you referring to? When I talk Illuminati, I am referring to an historical secret society during the latter part of the 18th Century, in central Europe. “Bloodlines” of the Illuminati, in this context, only muddies the waters and introduces into the mix conflations beyond reason.”

It seems indeed that most bloodline stories are nonsense on the superficial level, but the german princes and nobility who where members of the order are now on the trown of england which are patrons to pilgrim society and intimatly involved with their royal collegues in things like Bilderberg and stuff. Altough the original documents of the illuminati seem to refute it, from a lateral perspective it does sound quite logical to have a powestructure in which the upperlevels are based on bloodlines.

Perhaps we are looking at the illuminati from the wrong perspective and should add some lateral though to fill in the missing gap, especcialy when it comes to the strange alchemical mysticism of Karl von Hesse which seems to contradict the thoughts of Weishaupt. I doubt he just wanted to keep an eye on the order even though he has written it in his memoirs.

Also Terry please aswer this cause I have been wondering on it for quite some time but from lack of research couldn’t draw any conclusions. Why did Ernest Lewis, Duke of Saxe Gotha allow Weishaupt to stay at his place after the documents regarding Weishaupts plan to destroy Christianity and the trowns of Europe where published? Since he was a duke, and a duke is historicaly the highest rank below the monarch it seems that this would conflict his own interests. Same goes for Karls nephew who became a Jacobin, which also seems to be strange thing to do when as a nobel he could have acces to great luxery.

On the other hand the Brittish monarchy would be very glad I guess with a revolution in france removing the king from power (Karl was descended from the Brittish monarch so there would most definitly be some close relationships). Do you think, that altough the documents don’t explicitly tell it, that Weishaupt was employed by the German princes rather then the other way around and that the idea to purify the Templar Strict Observance from alchemical elements was done for strategic reasons? I mean I can’t comprehen how a man such as Karl, who seems to be obsessed with the occult, would allow Weishaupt to prevail in Whillemsbad (at his own brother castle even). It seems strange that such an influential person would just allow the occult elements of the Observance to be eliminated, especially since his family has a long history in the occult.

Would like to know your thoughts on this.

Terry Melanson
September 12, 2009

Well you certainly are more versed in the specifics than most people, and it’s a welcomed change.

I agree that bloodlines are important - before, during, and after Weishaupt’s Illuminati. The latter Order hardly changed the way the world works for those at the top, nor could their revolutionary heirs for the next 200 years. My only point - and now that I look at what I had written it seems an out of place answer considering - was that Springmeier et al. have gone and made up an arbitrary term to describe a few families who may or may not be the top of the heap, but who surely have not all colluded together in a single named cabal. If he had just said something to the effect that here is the power center and here’s how they have perpetuated, I would have had no problem.

Karl von Hesse wasn’t a radical, that’s for sure. (His nephew surely was, but different strokes for different folks.) He was certainly aware of the conspiratorial machinations of Weishaupt and Bode, and he was no one’s fool. Take it for what it is, but his Memoirs was candid in this area at least. And Knigge’s report in the Original Writings backs up Karl’s later account.

Ernst II was as liberal as they come for a soveriegn and an Enlightened Despot; his brother and his wife even more so. Check this excerpt from my book:

Reichard was the librarian of none other than Ernst II Duke of Saxe-Gotha, “the ‘enlightened’ protector of Adam Weishaupt and himself an ardent admirer of the French Revolution.”89 Not only did Ernst approve of what was going on in France, but so did his brother August, and particularly his wife, the Duchess Maria Charlotte-Amelia Ernestine [von Saxe-Meiningen] (1751-1827). During the French Revolution Charlotte-Amelia openly declared her support for the young republic, so much so that she completely stopped accompanying her husband to church on Sundays and ceased celebrating traditional holidays (in solidarity with the Jacobins), even decorating the castle with the busts of revolutionaries such as the Marquis de Lafayette and Jean Sylvain de Bailly.90

89. Epstein, op. cit., p. 495.
90. Le Forestier, op. cit., pp. 551-2. Apparently, for Ernst II, this level of devotion to the radical Enlightenment was commonplace, for his mother had carried on a great correspondence with philosophes such as Diderot, Helvétius, Rousseau and Voltaire (Ibid., p. 551).

Ernst, then, grew up in an atmosphere highly steeped in the ideology of the Enlightenment. And it is a fact of history that while Weishaupt was there at the court, everyone was absolutely enthralled with what was occurring in France. To be honest I’m not sure about the nuances of the politics involved, but if they were a-OK with the bloody Jacobins, then it goes without saying that it was equally OK to protect Weishaupt.

Ernst was in on the entire scheme too and was a Rex or Man-King (Docetist) and became the National head for Germany in 1785. Whatever Weishaupt knew, Ernst did as well. Further, Ernst also was no fool, and it is pretty clear that Weishaupt had no allusions about putting one over on him. One reason in particular that Ernst tolerated the Illuminati was that they were the most competent and talented pedagogues in all of Germany. During the Enlightenment the educational system in nearly every country was being wrestled from the hands of the monks, Jesuits and obscurantist scholastics. A clean slate was needed, and the theories of Basedow, Rousseau and Pestalozzi gained ascendancy. Ernst put them to work in Gotha, and the Illuminati set up and operated the New Philanthropinum school at Schnepfenthal which became quite famous and influential.

Another “Enlightened Despot” who cooperated with the Illuminati was Emperor Joseph II himself. Illuminati in both territories - Bavaria and Austria - were secretly working on the Emperor’s behalf to win Bavaria for Austria. Apparently Elector Karl Theodore of Bavaria was to be compensated with some territory in the Hapsburg Netherlands. A patriotic group within the Illuminati had got wind of the plan, and summarily left the Order and started to conspire against them. This was in 1783 and constitutes the beginning of the end for the Order in Bavaria. Weishaupt called the defectors the four betrayer Iscariots or Cylons. I had always thought that it was a story made up by the reactionaries to justify the persecution, but apparently it has been confirmed by the Illuminaten experts in Germany. It also sets Karl Theodore in a new light: he seems to have been a reluctant suppressor of the Order. Only when his hand was forced - after the defectors had spilled the beans - did he realize he had no choice.

Regarding Karl Hesse and Wilhelmsbad - it wasn’t his decision. The Duke of Brunswick was the Supreme head of the Order and whatever was decreed there was his sole responsibility. Anyway, the gist of it is that it was coming for quite some time. They were slowly realizing that they were being duped by imposters who claimed that the lineage of the Order traced back to the Knights Templar. It was put up or shut up time. “Occultism” wasn’t what was being banned, only the Templar mythos and adherence to so-called Unknown Superiors. In reality the Strict Observance masons merely watered it down and switched allegiance to Willermoz’s C.B.C.S. After Wilhelmsbad you emerged as either a Chevaliers Bienfaisants, or an Eclectic Alliance Illuminatus, or quit altogether.

phantom
September 20, 2009

OK quite interesting. Your knowledge is quite detailed but the reason I was ‘challenging’ is some way the by you accepted view was that I noticed a certain pattern in the historic events that we learn about. For example let me talk about the hesse family. You mentioned how they have a long history in occult and that should be further researched so I did some research and found some interesting facts.
For example Maurice the learned was of the hesse family, Philip of hesse was the leading champion in the protestant reformation. It is mentioned by many that Martin Luther was a rosicrucian (or atleast that is the claim and that would also imply that rosicrucianism would excist before the official accepted date but that’s another discussion) and that it was no coincidence that he gained support of prominent german princes. I’ve never been able to verify this but I keep in the back of the mind. Also appearantly the Hesse family emblem that was being used at a cross of the knights templar that was specifically given to them(I don’t know the name of the crosse but it’s a double cross). So I went to look further and the hesse dynasty is descended from Saint Elizabeth, who’s father was a crusader, supervised a meeting of the templars, hostpitallers and tutonics and Elizabeth herseve was known for the rose-miracle and appearently lived for a whiled in the same castle where Christian Rosenkreutz appearantly was born. And Elizabeth descended from Baldwin II as we all know was king of jerusalem and was intimed related to the original starting templars. It was my theory then that this is how the house of hesse has become so known for occultism etc.

So to sum up the house of hesse originates from Baldwin II, descends from Elizabeth, is known for occult and rosicrucian pratices, was a major contributor to the protestant reformation (William of Orange was also descended from Hesse family), always as been active in occult afterwards, sticks with prussia and hannover during Seven years war, is involved in the bavarian illuminati, ‘made’ the house of rothschilds which seem to be an important financial tool of the illuminati, was involved in asiatic brethern (which appearently promoted jews as freemasons which is funny because Amsterdams Wisselbank was often claimed to be controlled by jews who occompiend William the III of orange to England and helped with the infamous bank of england), has produced Philip of Mounbatten (I don’t think I need to tell you about him) and basically all the protestant important kings and queens descend from the one way or another. Lol that’s quite an impressive resumee. If I would start an illuminati of my own and they showed me their CV they where in from that second!!!

So I guess what I’m trying to say with this small bit of information that there has been quite an interesting pattern in history from the crusades to present which unfortunately is not supported from the detail we have such as memoirs and letters. But also a lot of anomalies excist such as Frederick II of Hesse becoming Chatholic, Sweden fighting Prussia during the Seven years war and the son of William of Orange being chatholic. Is it possible perhaps to balance this out? Not just suggesting that everything we see is mainly coincidence, but also not letting our desire and fascination for such a major conspiracy during the course of history make us dismiss these memoirs, letters documents and anomolies?

phantom
September 20, 2009

also thanks for the Duke-thing to clear it up. Well it’s not quite cleared up for I still don’t understand why anyone would openly support vieuws that would treaten their position (unless they are really honest people) but the information you supplied is of course interesting.

I’ve not got the change to order your book because…well I’m not a rothschild and other books have been on my list for a longer time so that has to wait for a while untill I get some more money.

But what you mention of the emperor being involved in the Illlumianti is also interesting cause correct me if I’m wrong but didn;t the Illuminati planned to start a similair revolution like the frensh one targeted at the Habsburg dynasty? Or was I again reading an article full of nonsense :)?

And regarding the Duke of Brunswick being in full control: wasn’t Karl second? I would assume their would be warm relationships (also since Hesse and Brunswick fought with Prussia and Brittain in the Seven years war) and that at least some influence could be expressed trough the advises of Karl. But then again I guess we weren’t there so we can never really know what exactly when on now can we?

Anyway I can definatly see that my knowledge of egypt (well just the small bits of information i have lets not be to ego) leads me to connect some interesting dots, but with the superficial information I have at my disposel (articles from internet) my hands are tight. I guess its time to start ordering some books and take the investigation deeper.

Terry Melanson
September 21, 2009

Emperor Joseph II was an adherent of enlightened absolutism, much like the Illuminati. He was surrounded by Illuminati in his court, and they were basically running the daily activities of the State. In 1783 he probably didn’t even know what the Illuminati were, only that some were Freemasons. Cooperation was done on the basis of ideas and politics, not on any affiliation with a secret society.

The Illuminati hadn’t planned to start a revolution. They were infiltrators. Socio-political conspirators more akin to the Fabian society. When the French revolution got under way some Illuminati joined with the Jacobin clubs, especially in Mainz; but they didn’t start revolutions per say, nor did they advocate or actively pursue it as a goal.

After the death of Joseph II, his brother Leopold II took over. His rule was more conservative. Next in line was Francis II. His rule was literally a police state, mostly in response to the fervor created by the French Revolution. He arrested a bunch of radicals in 1794 who it is said were actually plotting against the government. Among them were individuals who were former Illuminati. Some were executed and/or got lengthy prison sentences. You can read the details in my book.

phantom
January 26, 2010

but luchetti quotes the Prince of Hesse is saying that at Wilhemsbad he learned of the plan to start a revolution in France. How can this be explained in the context of the original aim of the Illuminati to infiltrate governments and slowly minimizing it needs to bring everybody back in to a happy state of anarchy?

Terry Melanson
January 26, 2010

He did indeed write that in his Memoirs c. 1816 or ‘17, if I recall. It also squares with what Chancellor Sébastien Giraud had allegedly said after the Congress of Wilhelmsbad.

I’m not sure what you want me to explain about it. The proper way to put it in perspective is that both these men were of a mystical/conservative bent, and anti-revolutionaries. The program of the Illuminati was indeed whispered about at the Congress, and most of their views, to a conservative, would indeed be interpreted negatively. Their recollections were only put to paper after the Revolution and counterrevolutionary journals (the inventors of the modern ‘conspiracy theory’) had had their say. Undoubtedly this colored it considerably.

Terry Melanson
January 26, 2010

Sorry, instead of Giraud, I should have said Count François-Henri de Virieu.

phantom
January 27, 2010

OK I see things slowly start to make sense

Its a complicated puzzle history as you might know so sometimes I might have weird vieuws but that’s just because I have a life of my own and can’t be researching 24/7.

Tanx for explaning

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